Open thread until… possible, if not inevitable, betrayal.

Same, same as that other time, man: Ta-Nehisi Coates is busy! We’re left guessing! We can handle it, though, I’m sure. In the meantime, it’s yours….

Standard FYI clause: My rule of thumb is that I wait for 2 hours after Ta-Nehisi would usually open a thread (roughly noon, EST), and if none is forthcoming, I put one up here.

 

215 Comments

  1. OK, I will blog-flog this twice if I have to: Back in January, there were a couple posts on the mothership that have left me thinking ever since. (One was a post by TNC, and one was a comment in the Open Thread.) I’ve been meaning to write two posts based on those posts, and it’s taken a while but here’s the first one – comparing racism and transphobia:

    http://transiently.blogspot.com/2012/04/robert-byrd-and-me.html

    This was a very painful post for me to write. I literally could not look at the words I had written (which makes proofreading rather difficult.) So I have no idea how it came out.

    • JHarper2

       /  April 26, 2012

      Thank you.

      • Thank you for reading it.

        • JHarper2

           /  April 26, 2012

          I kept trying to write more, either there or here, but realized what I was writing was rather trite and took away rather than added to what you wrote.
          I will read it again in a day or so.

    • Bookwoman

       /  April 26, 2012

      It came out really, really well. i can’t imagine what you must have been going through during that time, but I’m so glad that you were treated well by your co-workers. Thank you for writing – it really helps those of us who don’t know.

      • You’re welcome. It’s a strange experience. On the inside, I’m happier than I’ve ever been. But on the outside – dealing with people – I’m more scared than I’ve ever been, because now I know what I have to be scared of.

    • Oh honey. It came out great. Painful and honest and great. Thank you so much.

    • helensprogeny

       /  April 26, 2012

      “I have no idea how it came out.”

      Beautifully, that’s how. Thanks so much for this. The immensity of your courage and your integrity on every front is inspiring.

    • SWNC

       /  April 26, 2012

      Thanks for sharing that. It’s really powerful.

    • LizR

       /  April 26, 2012

      This was beautiful; thank you for writing and sharing it.

  2. I know what to do! Blogflog!

    Jane Epeson doesn’t want to hear Miracle Day had issues.
    GoT tries to explain away the torture scenes this week
    AI videos from last night. I cannot explain to you people why I watch. I can only ask you go read my recap, watch the videos and perhaps understand a little bit better.
    I want to go to Smack Nightclub
    http://anibundel.wordpress.com/

    • JHarper2

       /  April 26, 2012

      The producer of The Killing on AMC does not think there was anything wrong with last season on that show either. I stuck with that all last season as the clearly evident problems mounted ever higher because some of the acting in the first episodes was so good.
      At the end of last season, I felt used, manipulated and betrayed; made a fool of in fact.
      Fool me once……
      I didn’t come back this year.

      • dmf

         /  April 26, 2012

        I’m watching a by and large enjoying the new season, still has interesting characters especially the lead woman investigator, decent writing/acting (except for the candidate), and good noir ambiance not sure if there is a better show on now outside of the pay channels that I don’t have.

        • JHarper2

           /  April 26, 2012

          Too Late.

          • dmf

             /  April 26, 2012

            fair enuff, with House on the way out it’s slim pickings on the idiotbox these days

  3. cofax

     /  April 26, 2012

    So the President was interviewed in Rolling Stone this week, and I saw a clip where he mentioned the awesome stuff he was reading in The Atlantic. Which convinces me he’s a lurking member of the Horde…

      • cofax

         /  April 26, 2012

        ::waves madly at Barry O::

        • Well. He wouldn’t be here, silly. This is the Student Lounge. Not, sad to say, The Atlantic.

          SOMEDAY.

          • dmf

             /  April 26, 2012

            i’m guessing he hangs over in the “cities” section

    • He’s also, apparently a Dishhead. Sullivan is praying for a VFYW from him.

      • dmf

         /  April 26, 2012

        heh, the prez “reads” blogs like he writes tweets and sends me email…

        • helensprogeny

           /  April 26, 2012

          True. But a VFYW from the Oval Office would be very cool indeed. I doubt Sullivan would ever come down from that.

    • stephen matlock

       /  April 26, 2012

      You mean you don’t the calls from him like I do? I’m on speed-dial on his blackberry. Just so you know.

  4. dmf

     /  April 26, 2012

    has anyone seen sign of pontchartraingirl on the intertubes?

  5. Dear DC/Baltimore Horde — the most unusual (and, dare I say, classiest) intercollegiate athletic event of the year has come again — the St. John’s College/Naval Academy Croquet Match. It will start at 1pm this Saturday, or 1pm Sunday if postponed due to rain.

    If you come, I can offer food. Since outside booze is banned, I will not be able to provide some of the ‘jellied punch’ (19th century jello shots, basically) that I will not be smuggling in disguised as a jello salad. Look for the gent (or gentlewoman) in a morning coat to find my wife or I.

    • JHarper2

       /  April 26, 2012

      And top hats, please tell me that you and the delightful R Bargis will have hats!
      I (and Anibundel) will be disappointed if there is not hats. And the correct trousers.

      • r_bargis

         /  April 26, 2012

        We do have top hats. That is how we roll.

    • SWNC

       /  April 26, 2012

      The annual croquet match almost convinced me to go to St. John’s. Part of me still regrets that I didn’t.

    • helensprogeny

       /  April 26, 2012

      I swear I first read that as Crochet Match. Gentlemen, ladies – to your hooks!

      • caoil

         /  April 26, 2012

        I would so want that to be televised, if it existed. I can hear the hushed (almost whispering, the way some of them do during golf matches, as if the golfer can hear them), British tones of the commentator in my head right now.

        • helensprogeny

           /  April 26, 2012

          I know. And WA could sooo still wear his morning suit and top hat.

        • helensprogeny

           /  April 26, 2012

          Morning COAT. Not suit. Gah!

        • dave in texas

           /  April 26, 2012

          Tiny nitpick: in reality, the golfers often actually can hear the announcers. They’re in that tower right behind the green, and their voices can be heard below. I’ve been to a couple of tournaments, and I was amazed at how quiet the crowds become when players are about to putt; it just becomes utterly silent, almost eerily so, considering that there can be several hundred people around the green.

          Now, as to whether or not golfers ought not to be so freaked out about people talking or even moving while they’re playing, well, that’s a whole ‘nother story, but you really can hear the announcers.

          • caoil

             /  April 26, 2012

            That is interesting, Dave – I always assumed (from only ever flitting to and then past a televised game) that it was just within the broadcast booth, not audible to the outdoor spectators. That actually explains a lot – thank you!

      • I AM THERE.

        • r_bargis

           /  April 26, 2012

          We’ll be at our traditional spot between the pitch and College Avenue, probably with some kind of sign proclaiming us to be “Old 7 College Ave”. This year we’ll have our usual sumptuous camp of carpets, low tables, squashy throw pillows, delicious treats, cooling drinks, vases filled with flowers, and genteel company. Put on your best and come by! There will not, I repeat not, be any sort of Victorian jello shots.

          Easiest place to find free parking is the garage at the corner of St John’s Street and Calvert Street, but it fills up by 11 am – next easiest place is to park at the Navy Stadium and take the free shuttle across the bridge (or walk – it’s about a mile).

  6. baiskeli

     /  April 26, 2012

    For bike geeks

    Our Wednesday Hill Repeats elevation profile bear a striking resemblance to Jaws Teeth
    http://app.strava.com/rides/7370724

    Also, if you love Electronica music, run, don’t walk and get the album 82 by the Kenyan Electronica Band Just a Band
    http://justaband.bandcamp.com/

    • There’s a ride near Portland called the Tour de Hood. I was pretty interested until I looked at their course map and realized that there are both +36% and -20% grades. The first is physically impossible to do on my bike as it is geared and the second sounds like a great way to get killed.

      http://www.tourdehoodride.com/course-routes/three-summits-challenge/

      • baiskeli

         /  April 26, 2012

        Whoah! I don’t mind the -20% grade (death grip on brakes) but +36% is falling over backwards even with the right gearing terrain.

        • Even the death grip can be trouble. I remember going down -12% grades where I had to pump the brakes because laying into them the entire time led to the pads heating up to the point where they started losing some grip. That wasn’t my idea of a good time.

          • baiskeli

             /  April 26, 2012

            Yes, especially if they’re long sustained descents (and especially if you’re riding tubulars, which I don’t).

            I don’t think there are many descents in Massachusetts that are steep enough and long enough to cause major issues (the steepest descent I’ve had is coming down Mt Wachusett and even that isn’t too long).

            I’m riding the Kancamagus Highway in a few weeks in NH and someone warned me about that very thing (stay off the brakes on the descents). I’ve driven it and I don’t think the descent gets any worse than 8-9% at any given point (and it’s long wide curves).

      • Ian

         /  April 26, 2012

        Yeah. Whoah indeed. That’s not all paved, is it? I don’t think I’ve ever seen a paved road that steep.

        • It’s a road race course, so I can only presume that it’s all paved. Looks like you’re on Forest Service roads for part of it, so that could explain the crazy grades.

    • Ian

       /  April 26, 2012

      That looks really unpleasant. Took my bike on the ski trails yesterday to see if they’re ready for biking. They’re not. A little walking and a lot of tenuous grinding through mud and slush. Average speed? 6.3mph.

      • baiskeli

         /  April 26, 2012

        I had a few choice words under my breath when I realized we were going to be doing it more than once. I’m surprised I managed the full 6.

        I have a race in 3 weeks, I signed up because I was told (mistakenly) that the course was relatively flat (it is, for the 130lb mountain goat/bird hybrid who said this, not so much for me ). It’s not in any way shape or form flat, there are 2 sections, “The Wall” (steep hill at the beginning) and “The Cave of pain” (long sustained grind in the middle). It’s 8 miles long and the race is 3 laps. I see a lot of pain in my future. My modest goal is not to get dropped and to finish with the main group.

    • NealH

       /  April 26, 2012

      I figured you were in Arlington going up to the water tower. I used to live on Lockeland near Arlington HS and would do running repeats over on Eastern Ave up to the water tower.

      • baiskeli

         /  April 26, 2012

        Yeah, Eastern Ave is pretty steep.

        We did the Rt 2 Access Road repeats a couple of weeks ago (up Rt 2 Access road, up Park, down Eastern Ave)
        http://app.strava.com/activities/6600596

        It’s funny but I never really realized how many big hills were in Arlington

        • efgoldman

           /  April 26, 2012

          You were about 5-10 minutes from where we lived, for 18 years, in Belmont. Wish we were still there, but it was a 120+ miles/day commute to the office in RI.

          • baiskeli

             /  April 27, 2012

            Great area to live in, but the 120+ mile a day commute must have been a killer (especially with Boston traffic)

  7. efgoldman

     /  April 26, 2012

    Just enough time before I go shopping and then home to say HI from work. I have survived 80% of my first week back (half time); I have actually done about and hour of real work (although remembering how took me two hours); and I received the returning hero treatment from a lot of people I like and respect, which was both surprising and gratifying. And i was right: no Disqus for me (TNC,MaJones) no facebook comments, also too (Pierce and elsewhere). Speaking of Pierce, no link today because all his pieces are equally magnificent, and I can’t choose among them.

    • JHarper2

       /  April 26, 2012

      Well done EFG!
      For you:

      Also K.Cox posted late yesterday that she was feeling old as she could no longer pull all-nighters.
      I told her that you might be able to lend her an onion.

      • You are aware the America is Canada’s onion, yes?

        • caoil

           /  April 26, 2012

          Though perhaps less smelly, no? Or maybe it’s a nice Walla Walla.

          • efgoldman

             /  April 26, 2012

            OK, caoil, time to go find corkingiron and the other Canadian Hordesters and deal with this:
            http://www.themarysue.com/yertle-the-turtle-banned/
            I know the US has a lot of influence up there, but really!

            • caoil

               /  April 26, 2012

              Oy. And I thought that stupid backbencher motion* in the House of Commons was my major issue for today. Turns out the idiots are out a-plenty in my home province, even.

              *the “we should have a study to figure out when life begins” motion, their sneaky method of reintroducing the abortion debate up here.

        • efgoldman

           /  April 26, 2012

          Canadia has a belt?

          • Someone recently said something on one of the threads (I think at TNC’s) about America being at Canada’s waist – the only logical conclusion, therefore, is that we are the onion. Ipso facto.

    • Congratulations!

  8. koolaid

     /  April 26, 2012

    rant warning

    So I’m involved in planning a smallish event. It came about very quickly and very last minute (one week to plan) and that makes things fly by the seat of our pants. That’s all fine–I’m pretty good at seat of the pants flying. We’ve got date, location, speaker. I’m in charge of flogging the event across various mediums (listservs & social media & accosting people on the street). Only I can’t. Why not, you reasonably ask? Because it has taken 2 of our 6 days of planning for the primary to figure out WHAT FREAKING TIME the event will begin. And I’ve gotten no response from my last “I’m waiting for you, please let me know ASAP” email.

    We’d like to actually have people attend this event. And people need to know what time to show up. And the people I’m asking to coerce others to attend NEED TO KNOW WHEN TO SHOW UP. THIS SHIT IS HAPPENING TUESDAY.

    /rant

    ahem.

    http://calmingmanatee.com/

    • I really have no idea why this went into moderation. Possibly because there was no text after the link? Because WP usually allows up to three thinks. Maybe it was a collection of things (all of which I approve of, no worries) – like: CAPS + cursing + link = moderation?

      I find that WordPress is much like the Trinity – a mystery.

      Never mind! Though I still find WordPress mysterious.

    • JHarper2

       /  April 26, 2012

      I love the calming manatees.

    • koolaide

       /  April 26, 2012

      srsly. wtf. it is now 3:40 pm. I was promised an official time by noon YESTERDAY. Normally, I wouldn’t care about delays. Because normally I’ve got more than 4 days (two working days) to flog an event. W–T–F.

      • SWNC

         /  April 26, 2012

        Can you just send out an email to all the parties involved saying, “The event will begin at 6:00.”? Somebody‘s got to make a decision.

    • SWNC

       /  April 26, 2012

      Oh my God. I would be in full on rampage mode. My sympathies.

      I am incredibly good at organizing stuff. It’s what I do professionally (and in my personal life unless I curb myself). I am like the less magical, less sexy sister of Hermione and Joan Hollowell in this regard. I Get Shit Done.

      And if you put me in charge of an event, it will happen. Or if I’m not in charge, but you give me all the salient details, it will happen. But if you don’t put me in charge and then dick around and don’t decide on basic things like—oh, the time of an event—I’m ready to go knock some heads together for you, koolaide.

  9. koolaide

     /  April 26, 2012

    (my little rant ended up in moderation. was it the link or the ranting? or did I put typos in my email address or name?

    • Ooh, I don’t know! I’ll go look.

      /ducks behind the curtain

      • koolaide

         /  April 26, 2012

        Thank you. It appears that I was unable to type my own nom d’ blog properly.

        • Ah! Yes. It was that. Not any of my other theories. /facepalm

          Reading. It’s essential!

          • koolaide

             /  April 26, 2012

            You’d think spelling one’s own name properly wouldn’t be something in need of proof-reading. But no.

            • Also, I actually meant: “Reading. It’s fundamental!”

              You and me, babe. We’re going far today!

  10. David L

     /  April 26, 2012

    One of the weirder aspects of working for the school system you graduated from is the inadvertent updates on the personal lives of your old teachers by way of things like noticing that your old Spanish teacher’s surname has changed in one database but not another.

  11. Blog flogging plus Horde Bait:

    First, I wrote up a review of two wheated Weller bourbons, the Antique 107 and the 12 Year:

    http://cocktailchem.blogspot.com/2012/04/whiskey-review-weller-antique-107-vs-12.html

    Second, a battle rap card game that’s trying to raise funding via Kickstarter (H/T Penny Arcade):

    http://legendofthecipher.com/

  12. Also, coconut milk makes everything better.

    • I am learning to cook with coconut oil. This is a good thing.

      • Does it have the same narcotic properties as coconut milk? I swear, after eating some Thai-style food, I just wander around in a happy little daze. (The fact that it’s home-made with freshly picked lemongrass probably doesn’t hurt either. Gloat.)

        • baiskeli

           /  April 26, 2012

          Coconuts don’t have any narcotic properties (unless you get hit hard enough with one).

        • Considering I’ve been using it to make my cookie substitutes, yes.

          • helensprogeny

             /  April 26, 2012

            There are no cookie substitutes.

            • Yes there are.
              1cup cashews
              1cup almonds
              1cup dried dates

              Toss in food processor. Pulse a couple of times. Add 2-3tlbs coconut oil and pulse until mixture is sticky but not wet.
              Toast coconut flakes in oven. Take nut&date mixture and roll into balls and roll in toasted coconut.
              Refrigerate an hour or so. VOILA! COOKIE SUBSTITUTE!

              • helensprogeny

                 /  April 26, 2012

                (Those actually sound really good. But I would argue they are full fledged cookies, not substitutes.)

                • Nope. There’s no butter or sugar. Therefore: NOT COOKIE.

                  • helensprogeny

                     /  April 26, 2012

                    Oh, my. I had no idea cookie had such a precise definition. Nevertheless, if you serve these to me on a tray with a doily at the Crochet Match, I would still likely call them a cookies. Delicious either way. (Thanks for the recipe.)

            • caoil

               /  April 26, 2012

              Note to you: chocolate chips have been purchased today, so I will have my revenge vindication cookies this weekend!

              • caoil

                 /  April 26, 2012

                Drat, Emily, my html skills are faltering, those two words were supposed to be strikethrough. *fails at life*

                • Fixt! Though a recipe for Revenge Vindication Cookies would take you far in life. Especially if they have chocolate chips.

              • helensprogeny

                 /  April 26, 2012

                Oooh, excellent. So far I have resisted baking but have opened the bag of chips and am proceeding to eat them naked. By which I mean the chips are naked, as in without cookie dough in which to wrap themselves. I am fully clothed. Because I have my front door open, enjoying a beautiful cross-breeze on one of the last cool days before the hell of summer descends. And by cool, I mean just under 80 degrees.

                • caoil

                   /  April 26, 2012

                  Hee, your clarification was probably a good idea!

              • JHarper2

                 /  April 26, 2012

                Revenge Vindication Cookies sound pretty cool.
                Revenge is a dish that is tastes best like cookies.

                • Bookwoman

                   /  April 26, 2012

                  Revenge is a dish best served warm and gooey?

              • AND I WILL STILL HAVE NONE.

                That @jbouie and his cooking/baking tweets! Terrible.

    • I’m trying to come up with some kind of “but how do you milk a coconut?” joke and it just ain’t happenin’ so instead I’ll say:

      I certainly enjoyed it in my Trader Joe’s-purchased lunch item yesterday!

      • My bf grew up in Africa, so he has all these rules about how you’re supposed to get the milk out of the coconut. Me, I just buy the can.

        • aaron singer

           /  April 26, 2012

          I thought you put the lime in it and shake it all around.

        • Ian

           /  April 26, 2012

          Making coconut milk is a lot of work, and canned tastes fine. Sometimes it’s fun to do it the hard way, but I can’t remember the last time I bothered.

    • koolaide

       /  April 26, 2012

      Coconut milk is one of those exotic ingredients that I have no idea how to use in a dish.

    • efgoldman

       /  April 26, 2012

      Also, coconut milk makes everything better.
      Yeah, but at what point in their migratory cycle are the coconuts ready for milking?

      • Now for some reason I am envisioning coconuts with little milking machines attached.

        • efgoldman

           /  April 26, 2012

          You should, perhaps, be envisioning the coconuts with wings, or being carried by migrating swallows.

  13. JHarper2

     /  April 26, 2012

    Re: Inevitable Betrayal,
    I think you have the Open Thread of the Horde confused with Game of Thrones.

    Thank you for opening the Student Lounge.

    • NO. NO I DO NOT. I DO NOT HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH THAT PROGRAMME (spelling for the Canadians in the room).

      I have it confused with Firefly.

    • David L

       /  April 26, 2012

      Stannis and Renly Baratheon’s long-lost cousin: Ta-Nehisi, who leads the Lost Battalion and the Golden Horde into battle. Sadly, rhetoric is no match for a direwolf.

      • You people obviously do not watch South Park. Last night, Mr. Garrison’s history lesson was all about the Greeks, the Romans, The Starks, The Baratheons, The Lannisters, The Targaryens and The Night’s Watch.

    • HEY YOU!!

      I had to unapprove you. You posted tomorrow’s post today!

  14. dmf

     /  April 26, 2012

    heads up pacific northwest the kalifornians have brought more than traffic and skyrocketing real estate prices with them:
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/47191083/ns/technology_and_science-science/#.T5mdK9U2f0Q

    • *Shakes fist*

      • dmf

         /  April 26, 2012

        don’t shake it too hard might start a chain-reaction

    • NealH

       /  April 26, 2012

      We had our annual earthquake drill in our building yesterday, which consists of someone getting on the building PA and going through something like the following “The building is starting to shake. Get under your desk. Books are falling off the shelves. The building is continuing to sway. You hear people screaming. Are you under your desk yet? Etc. ” for 30 seconds to a minute. Not having been here for the Nisqually quake, listening to the drill is somewhat amusing, but can’t say I’m looking forward to the real thing–I think our building is pretty safe, but I’m on the 45th floor, so would probably have quite a ride in store.

  15. chingona

     /  April 26, 2012

    I caused a minor shitstorm in the recent Trayvon Martin thread by asking someone not to use females as a noun. People were really offended that I asked them not to use a perfectly good English word. It is complicated somewhat by the fact that the person (willallen) was referring to an 18yo and a 14yo in the same sentence. I don’t like females as a noun partly because it mostly is used by cops or to refer to animals in farming and zoological contexts. But also because 9 times out of 10, men who refer to women as females turn out to have a problem with women. Or be cops. Not mutually exclusive categories. So lots of negative associations. I am quite sure that in the specific context of that thread, I should not have brought it up, but, more broadly speaking, am I wrong?

    • Ian

       /  April 26, 2012

      I don’t like females as a noun either. Hence I liked your comment. I understood the writing problem he was grappling with (didn’t want to call an 18-year-old a girl), so I felt very slightly bad for him, but it grated for me, too.

    • dmf

       /  April 26, 2012

      drives me crazy for the same reasons but has a certain cultural weight that would likely make such a conversation more trouble than it’s worth in terms of making any positive change, I try not to police people’s speech except up here on my porch

      • chingona

         /  April 26, 2012

        I know. But it’s kind of twisted that saying “excuse me, please don’t say that” is considered more offensive than saying the offensive thing in the first place.

    • baiskeli

       /  April 26, 2012

      I’ve always been wary of people using ‘female’. I couldn’t place my finger on why, but I think you explained it very well.

    • Dex

       /  April 26, 2012

      Hey, chingona, I’m sorry that I contributed to the whole thing. I saw your post go up and the first couple of the replies and was worried that it was going to blow up. So then I was tempted to just explain what I thought the objection was, but then I chickened out because I didn’t want to mansplain it. My explanation would have hinged on the adjective versus noun usage problem and I would have left out the animal angle. But I wanted to try to show support and, well, we can see how that turned out.

      Gah. Epic fail on my part. I’m sorry if I made you uncomfortable in my initial reply to you and for whatever part I played in the margin-fest. (Honestly, I didn’t think it was all that bad; I didn’t think anyone got out of control, and I actually do believe that some people will at least give it some thought, but I have a higher tolerance of these sorts of discussions than TNC does.)

      Sad face.

      • chingona

         /  April 26, 2012

        I actually think willallen is being really rude about it now and I broke my own promise to myself not to reply to anything else. If I get banned, I’ll see everyone in the student lounge.

        • Ian

           /  April 26, 2012

          Unless I have him mixed up with somebody else, he’s exhibited weird, stalkery behavior with other people. If I were you I’d disengage permanently ASAP.

          • dmf

             /  April 26, 2012

            what’s to gain?

            • Ian

               /  April 26, 2012

              From disengaging? Peace. Maybe I’m wrong–maybe this is another guy–but I think one long-term commenter actually changed his user name because this guy was following him around and picking fights in a way that was obviously personal. Craig could confirm, but I believe he “teaches” today.

              • Ian

                 /  April 26, 2012

                (Wasn’t Craig that changed his username, but I know he’s had irritating run-ins with the commenter in question.)

              • dmf

                 /  April 26, 2012

                sorry Ian was trying to reply to chingona, I’m with you that this is counterproductive.

                • Ian

                   /  April 26, 2012

                  You would not believe how often I screw up my replies on Emily’s threads. It’s as if I’ve reached an age where my brain can understand one and only one commenting system.

              • Dex

                 /  April 26, 2012

                He had a massive run-in with petefrombaltimore, like dozens upon dozens of posts.

                • chingona

                   /  April 26, 2012

                  That’s interesting, because they’re both conservative. Not that that means they would automatically agree. I’ve gotten into the margins with both sara and Erik, and we’re all liberal, feminist-friendly folks. the

                  • SWNC

                     /  April 26, 2012

                    Yeah, but willallen is a jerk. It’s not ever worth responding to him, in my experience.

              • True story. And yeah, it wasn’t me, but I’ve had enough run-ins with him that I simply don’t respond to him at all.

        • Dex

           /  April 26, 2012

          I totally agree with your first point but for me personally, and more importantly for the good of the community, don’t do it. Willallen2 was asleep the day they taught social skills. You’re too great of a contributor to get baited by and banned over him.

          • dmf

             /  April 26, 2012

            poor TNC has pleaded with folks time and again to let these things drop, why disrespect his house/efforts/wishes?

            • chingona

               /  April 26, 2012

              Well, it wasn’t my intention to disrespect him. I honestly did not foresee at all the way it was going to go down. He’s cleaning up now. Deleted, not banned! (And I wasn’t rude to willallen in my last reply. I even held back several snarky things! I had just promised myself not to reply at all.)

            • Dex

               /  April 26, 2012

              I think you misread both my post and Ian’s that chingona should disengage. If you feel like we behaved badly over there just now, then just say it, but the posts to which you responded are pleas to disengage.

        • Yeah, he’s a jerk.

        • efgoldman

           /  April 26, 2012

          He has been weird and very, very trollish elsewhere, particularly Balloon Juice, going back to at least before the last (pres) election.

      • dmf

         /  April 26, 2012

        TNC has had the chastening experience of watching these things play out over time and noting the lack of substantial change that comes from such heated exchanges. The idea that there are some lurking masses being converted by these kinds of debates is to date without evidence and contrary to the history of that blog.

        • Dex

           /  April 26, 2012

          Although I am generally sympathetic to TNC’s desire to maintain general decorum and defer to his decisions, I actually disagree pretty strongly with the idea that people’s minds don’t get changed in these exchanges. Even TNC himself has moved quite a lot on such issues as feminism* and same sex marriage. I’ve moved on a lot of issues as well. You can point to a guy like btw and the way he talks now is, at least from my view, unrecognizable compared with who he was when he arrived.

          *And I would argue that you could trace his movement on feminism back to a single heated exchange with sara_l_r where, when I saw sara post her final response, I held my breath because I was almost certain she would be banned.

          • chingona

             /  April 26, 2012

            Agree with all of this.

          • chingona

             /  April 26, 2012

            And, at least for now, he let my original comment stand, which I consider a small victory.

            • David L

               /  April 26, 2012

              I usually take those as a sign of agreement but not wanting to have it debated.

              FWIW, I went over just to take a look and got irritated enough about the “common” thing that I wrote a comment about how I can think of words I hear a lot more often than the noun form of “female” that are used to denigrate people, even some of them from the same “turn adjectives into nouns as a way of dehumanizing” pool (e.g., “homosexual.”)

              • enstar

                 /  April 26, 2012

                like i said below, and very briefly had posted to kate’s comment at the other site: using an adjective as a noun is not in itself problematic (we’ve been doing it forever, and do it in extremely positive contexts, too), and also the specific word “female” was a noun for at least as long as it has been an adjective (and also also the term is still a noun just as frequently as an adjective in modern times, too).

                but context is incredibly important.

          • dmf

             /  April 26, 2012

            can you point to a substantial change in TNC’s posting on women? as for the balance of change vs not in these kinds of talking at each other back and forths I think my general point (and more important TNC’s) remains, it makes him wish he had another job and has reduced him to pleading and even threats.

            • I can’t provide links, but around the time he started joking about “fuc*ing feminists,” it seemed like he was starting to think more deeply about the issues. And he started reading Jane Austen, although technically I suppose we don’t know that the Hordettes are responsible for that. (Yes, I know. Hordettes. Bad.)

              • dmf

                 /  April 26, 2012

                as an atlantic blogger he has long been a feminist and by all accounts is married to one, this is part of why he has had a strong following of thoughtful women for years

                • chingona

                   /  April 26, 2012

                  My husband agrees with many feminist positions and is married to a feminist and he still sometimes sticks his foot in it (in my humble opinion). Saying TNC’s more open to feminist positions now doesn’t mean he was some kind of sexist jerk before.

                • I wouldn’t automatically assume that all Atlantic bloggers are feminists, myself. There’s a difference between “knows enough about an issue to be politically correct” and “has gotten into the issue deeply.” I tend to put feminists in the second category.

            • chingona

               /  April 26, 2012

              The more obvious one involved a post that used an arrest photo of a white, female civil rights protester and that generated a lot of comments about how attractive she was. A number of commenters objected to the focus on her looks, and he didn’t see the issue. The next day, he basically reversed his position. Now, this was with a big assist from a real-life conversation with his wife, but he wouldn’t have taken the matter up with his wife if it hadn’t been for all the commenters.

              I also feel like in general he’s a lot more empathetic with feminist positions now, but it’s a subtle thing where I couldn’t just link to an example.

              • dmf

                 /  April 26, 2012

                this kind of subtle change in an existing attitude is another subject than tangential shouting matches.

                • David L

                   /  April 26, 2012

                  If it’s tangential to the issue at hand, then why are you asking “can you point to a substantial change in TNC’s posting on women?”

                • chingona

                   /  April 26, 2012

                  It has followed some pretty intense, tangential shouting matches. The shouting match about the comments about her appearance were totally tangential to the post in quesiton.

              • LizR

                 /  April 26, 2012

                One possible example: just yesterday when people were arguing that there’s a sexist component to the charges of racism getting leveled at Girls he seemed to disagree, but went out of his way to point all of the commenters dealing with it to a single thread where they could try to convince him. I’m not sure they did (I’m not even sure I think they’re right), but he definitely offered them an opening in a way that I’m not sure he would have two or three years ago.

            • Dex

               /  April 26, 2012

              Disclaimer: I’ve only be reading him for 3-4 years and people should feel free to correct me on this, but up until 1.5 to 2 years ago, I don’t recall a single post by him that I would categorize as explicitly feminist. He now posts about feminist issues on a very regular basis and from a variety of different angles. I also think that the way that he writes and manages the comments has changed pretty dramatically.

              As far as engaging people in conversations and getting skinny, I don’t things are quite as clear-cut as you make them out to be. Particularly during the Trayvon Martin saga, TNC himself engaged tons of people repeatedly, and several of them were, to me at least, quite obviously trolls. I have seen multiple occasions where people have pointed out trolls to TNC (some of which he was actively engaging) because he hadn’t picked up on it.

              I also think the fact that TNC has allowed a lot of the comments in the sub-thread in question to stand without immediate deletion is a fairly good indication that he didn’t feel that it had gotten out of hand.

          • Oh god, we’re talking about that Freedom Riders post, right? That messed me up for days, but it was all worth it. Do you remember what I said in my final post? I honestly don’t. I legit think I blocked it out.

    • enstar

       /  April 26, 2012

      hm, i’ve never really considered why it could be problematic, but your explanation makes sense why it could. in a more academic context, though, i imagine that it would be difficult to do away with the term entirely.

      to add to your point: it is a common discourse technique (intentional or otherwise) to use clinical or generalized language in a context where we would expect something more specific, in order to distance yourself from the topic. that is, if i were hanging out with my best friend, and we met someone new, and i introduced him as “my former classmate X”, i would be clearly undervaluing the actual nature of our relationship.

      i can see a lot of cases where using a more generalized term, like “females”, can be a way both to underdescribe women, as well as dehumanize them (“women” are human, “females” aren’t, necessarily). add to that the problem of gender power dynamics, and you have a recipe for nastiness.

    • JHarper2

       /  April 26, 2012

      I saw your original comment shortly after it was posted and before the stuff went down, which I missed as I was gone by then. I raised my eyebrows a bit because I had never the considered the matter and was unsure where you were coming from. I think if you had expanded the original comment with the reasoning behind your request it might have been less margin-ey. (or not, some people want to fight about everything that is not as they have always done and spoke.)

      I am glad that you brought your question over here as I learned something new from this discussion. I agree with dex and enstar above that minds can be changed and people can see things differently once discussion starts. Sometimes it is simply a matter of someone saying how it looks from where she or he sits that gets thinking and changes going, sometimes it is a greater struggle. Anyway, good on you for speaking up.

      • dmf

         /  April 26, 2012

        people have to be open to change, if they feel under siege or blindsided this can’t happen, certainly not by pushing harder

        • chingona

           /  April 26, 2012

          If you think I was in the wrong, just say so.

          • dmf

             /  April 26, 2012

            as i said your point was one that I support in general but could see that in that context it would be a problem, now I remember why I stopped commenting at TNC’s so I’m going to call it quits, sorry ee for making a ruckus in your head.

            • chingona

               /  April 26, 2012

              You’re not making a ruckus in my head. It seems like you’re implying something but I’m not sure if you are or not. Sorry for any misunderstanding.

            • chingona

               /  April 26, 2012

              And I see now that you are apologizing to emily. Again, I’m not intending to be antagonist. I’m sorry.

              • Like I said to dmf, I think misunderstandings are bound to happen now and then. I’m grateful that when they happen, people apologize.

            • My friend, I think there was a misunderstanding, not a ruckus – we are all coming from different directions and occasionally we all talk past each other. It happens.

        • Dex

           /  April 26, 2012

          Ah, now I see what you are objecting to. When I talk about people’s minds being changed, I’m talking about people reading along. In general, I don’t believe you’re ever going to convince the most vociferous objectors in a given thread, and certainly not in the heat of the moment. They may go away and think about it, maybe even do some reading on the topic, but it’s generally not very likely. When I engage in debates with people, I’m writing just as much to the people reading along as I am the person I am engaging directly.

          • LizR

             /  April 26, 2012

            I think there’s also value in future reflection on the argument. I’ve had my butt (can we curse over here?) handed to me several times over the course of my life in debates and changed my mind because of it, but I’ve never done so in the heat of the moment. Sometimes a good argument will stick with you even if you’re not willing admit defeat right then.

      • chingona

         /  April 26, 2012

        If I had to do it again – other than just not saying anything – I would have included an explanation. Apparently, standard feminist objections to the use of “female” as a noun are not nearly as common knowledge as I thought. Learn something everyday.😉

        • caoil

           /  April 26, 2012

          I thought maybe there’d be an easy-to-find piece on Feministe that could act as a 101 when needed. But my cursory searching has only turned up this, which is more of a discussion around its use and whether it is problematic.

          • chingona

             /  April 26, 2012

            I remember that post. It was a good one. But I kind of didn’t want to link to a super-feministy place. I deliberately chose not to link to a Jezebel piece that came up when I was searching. Feminists are notoriously biased on the issue of sexism.😉

            • chingona

               /  April 26, 2012

              Not that Jezebel is that feminist, in my opinion. Sometimes, it’s atrocious. But to non-feminists, it comes off as very feminist.

            • caoil

               /  April 26, 2012

              I understand completely. When a well-meaning but exceedingly-clueless-about-feminist-issues friend got into a “but why is this a problem” match on my FB wall with a good friend of mine, I wished I had some good posts at my fingertips that I could point him to and say, here, look, read these succinct and pointed articles by these incredibly smart women, and then come back and tell me why our feelings about issue x are invalid. I still need to do some searches so I have them bookmarked.

          • enstar

             /  April 26, 2012

            oh that’s a lovely post, and says what i was trying to say much better.

  16. Re: your tweet last night, Boys Noize is utterly fantastic dance music. For example:

    Just ignore the silly (somewhat NSFW) video that goes along with it.

    • dmf

       /  April 26, 2012

      that’s disturbing, a bad flashback to the film “Kids” scariest movie ever

    • carlosthedwarf

       /  April 26, 2012

      That’s from the British version of Skins. Which is basically Kids, but with more comedy and less HIV.

    • Funny story: I RT-ed that because my kids’ ex-babysitter had RT-ed the original (ex only because he went to college) with no idea who or what they were. I mean, I agreed with the sentiment (“music is awesome”) but mostly I just wanted to RT something my babysitter had tweeted, because I knew it would make him smile.

      And I actually really find this pretty awesome, so now I’m double glad!

    • carlos the dwarf

       /  April 26, 2012

      The Tim Thomas Schadenfreude is oh so sweet!

      • efgoldman

         /  April 26, 2012

        The thing I couldn’t understand, is f-ing Dale Hunter (the dirtiest player in my hockey-watching lifetime), outcoached the crap out of Claude, in all seven games.
        If the Rangers lose tonight (they probably won’t), execs at NBC and the NHL office will be considering hara-kiri. Can you imagine conference finals of Phoenix/Nashville and Ottawa/either of the FL teams? The ratings will be unmeasurable.

        • Ian

           /  April 26, 2012

          Dale Hunter was one of my top five hated players. Dirty as hell, but not terribly fun to watch. Claude Lemieux was fun to watch. Ulf Samuelsson was fun to watch. Hunter was just a dick.

    • BLACK GUY ON THE ICE! BLACK GUY ON THE ICE!

      • efgoldman

         /  April 26, 2012

        I understand their was (inevitably) some really nasty, ugly, hideous, vile snit in the tweetverse this morning. I didn’t check it out. I don’t need the aggravation.

  17. A breakthrough.

    I was sent to Starbucks by my boss. I went. I did not buy anything.

    And this was ok.

    • efgoldman

       /  April 26, 2012

      I was sent to Starbucks by my boss.
      :::ahem:::
      What century is this?

      • Ian

         /  April 26, 2012

        Maybe she went to collect the protection money?

      • No, no. my ADHD, flamingly gay boss who has his board packet due at 12midnight tonight, and who was not going to make his deadline unless I injected him with another venti mocha.
        I still don’t think he’s going to make his deadline, but he promised to work on it tonight while catching up on South Park.

  18. wearyvoter

     /  April 26, 2012

    This weekend brings a marathon and its several iterations to my friendly town. Tomorrow evening, I will be briskly walking the 5K, in my first round as a runner/walker/crawler rather than as one of the water givers. Original plan was that spousal unit would be participating as well. (And this would have been his third time as a runner.) However, because of a last-minute schedule change by a client,he has to be at a job tomorrow evening at a time that coincides with the starting gun. Oh well. We will pick up our packets tonight. I’ll get to actually use the goodies in the bag. (Tech shirt, runner’s bib, bandaids.) And we both entered early enough that the entry fee was considerably less than what we’d pay retail for the tech shirts. At least he gets a nice (rather than a lousy🙂 ) shirt out of the deal.

    The rest of the iterations (full marathon, 10K, half-marathon, relay, and youth run) are all on Saturday.

    • helensprogeny

       /  April 26, 2012

      Hey, good luck! Hope you have a great run/walk. Let us know how it goes.

      • wearyvoter

         /  April 26, 2012

        If I survive, I will post a picture of the medal, the shirt, and the bib, arranged in a lovely tableau. The shirts this year are midnight blue, in honor of the thing starting just before sunset. (And I guarantee, I will be back at the stadium before full dark. I’m going to proceed under the pacing rule of “keep moving or get trampled”.) The way they do the finish line is pretty cool. You enter Memorial Stadium at the U of Illinois campus, and you get to see yourself on the big screen monitor on the scoreboard. I will likely finish ahead of the folks who are pushing strollers at the back of the pack, but behind orange and blue Darth Vader, Spider Man, Wonder Woman, and assorted other costumed characters. Serious Business is reserved for the Saturday morning events.